Tuesday, 6 January 2009

Excessive force.

By Albion

I read that roughly 550 Palestinians so far have been killed by Israeli forces in the Gaza conflict. Our very own Kommissar Herr Brown, ‘Nick’ Sarkozy and other world leaders have said the Israelis had a right to defend themselves from the continual rocket attacks but questioned the use of excessive force. Let’s look at that figure of 550 and try and determine what excessive force is.

Whether force is excessive depends which side of the conflict you are on. Let me explain. With the UN appearing to be the referee in many of these conflicts, it is they who decide, with pressure from the first world nations whether a regional conflict should be allowed to continue.

For example whether Kosovo should be annexed from Serbia and ceded to Albanian Moslems, and whether the American bombing of Serbia was justified or excessive when Serbia had no air defences and again this was a regional conflict, or whether Russia used excessive force when they stopped the attempted genocide in South Ossetia.

Meanwhile Georgia's President Mikhail Saakashvili sitting in front of an EU flag, a sycophant extraordinaire of the EU and a non-member of the EU accused the Russians of using excessive force in retaking South Ossetia. The BBC, as predictable as ever reported that the Russians invaded Georgia without provocation but weeks later the UN found that Georgia was involved in Genocide and the BBC had to make a hurried apology which was entirely against their apparent charter of unbalanced and biased reporting.

Wars today are supposed to be fought politely. If say a British soldier kicks an Iraqi prisoner his case might be brought before a Human Rights Commission and victim can sue for loss of dignity and hurt feelings. In contrast when blacks fight each other machetes and AK 45’s are the choice of weapons. In some African conflicts, very few I must add, they still eat body parts of their enemy.

One commentator said in all wars a country should use every means at is disposal to beat the enemy, and up until the end of WW2 that’s the way it has always been. If France was lobbing rockets across the channel non-stop, how would Brown react, maybe send in an expeditionary force and ask them to stop it?

“To my left I suddenly see a woman. I can see her to this day and shall never forget it. She carries a bundle in her arms. It is a baby. She runs, she falls, and the child flies in an arc into the fire, a raging firestorm. Suddenly, I saw people again, right in front of me. They scream and gesticulate with their hands, and then - to my utter horror and amazement - I see how one after the other they simply seem to let themselves drop to the ground. They fainted and then burnt to cinders.

Reading this would one say excessive force was used on non combatants, a woman with a child? But no the British government would say excessive force was not used; it was justifiable, they were the victors.

I would like to stress this bestial criminality was carried out on the orders of the ‘British GovernmentNOT the British people. The bomber crews were the brave ones, many of them lost their lives carrying out dangerous nightly missions. In a time of war disobeying an order could mean death.

No-one had experienced a firestorm such as this in any war. The oxygen was removed from the air by incendiary bombs so many people were suffocated. They were the lucky ones, they were not burnt alive. The people involved in this horror on a civilian population knew this carnage would happen.

Many of you reading this would not have been alive during WW2. But it was the British government that gave ’Bomber’ Harris the all clear to bomb Dresden. 100,000 people mainly civilians were incinerated in an instant in a firestorm; it was the closest thing to an Atomic explosion. Dresden had no military value whatsoever. The Leica factory and the manufacture of fine China were the enemy here.

The British decided to break the moral of the German people by deliberately targeting the civilian population.

That was primitive savagery taken to the extreme. Harris should have been charged with crimes against humanity and hanged, but he wasn’t. Crimes against humanity is one of the spoils of war, it’s a luxury the victor enjoys.

I regularly watch the BBC Irish commentators reporting from Gaza and there is little exposure concerning the thousands of rockets that Hamas have rained on Israel but plenty on the use of ‘excessive force’ by the Israelis. Interestingly we are again talking about a ‘regional conflict’ but neither the EU nor the UN is game enough to poke their noses in. The EU is posturing like peacocks as though they are a democratically elected government.

Maybe what the BBC would like to report is that there has been a polite response to the rocket firing and strong urges to Hamas by the Israeli government to stop firing rockets at their civilians who have to duck in an air raid shelter every few minutes.

Something like over a million deaths in the Sudan and the Congo, now I would consider that excessive, but where is the UN. Sorry we are discussing a black country, there are always exceptions.

Finally one day history will show that the bombing of Serbia into submission was a murky episode that would frighten many people who think we live in a civilised democratic society. I smell the work of the New World Order that Mr. Brown spoke at great length about in one of his speeches The New world order that is crafting Europe as I write.


defender said...

I thought your post to be spot on GA.

Earlier I read the following article, it is becoming clearer by the day that dark forces are indeed active.

Beware the liberal fascists - the leaders who aim to 'save' us by controlling everything we do

By Jonah Goldberg
Last updated at 12:01 AM on 04th January 2009

Barack Obama

Dictating to us: Barack Obama loves telling us how to live

His controversial book Liberal Fascism has already divided his own country. Now, as American political columnist JONAH GOLDBERG's bestseller is published in Britain, he explains why he believes that - contrary to conventional wisdom - fascism and left-wing philosophy are inextricably linked ...

Hallelujah! The Bush nightmare is over. The dark night of American fascism is giving way to the dawn of hope, the Age of Obama. The forces of truth will once again prevail and the crypto-Nazis will be banished to their caves.

That pretty much captures a large segment of current liberal conventional wisdom on both sides of the Atlantic.

Over the course of his presidency, President George W. Bush and his supporters have been called fascists and Nazis thousands of times in books, articles, documentaries and by legions of poster-wielding 'progressive' youths with open-toed shoes and closed minds.

Of course, this shouldn't surprise anyone. For more than 70 years the Left has hurled the F-word at anyone who gets in its way - Stalin invented this tactic to de-legitimise socialist opponents, including Leon Trotsky, assassinated for leading a 'fascist coup'.

Anonymous said...


Israel's long term goal is to set the Palestinians back many years then utilise the situation that they have deliberately created, to have Nato or UN Troops surrounding the Palestinian area's ie Gaza and West Bank,in the same way they are now being used on the border of Lebanon. A ring of steel defending them by the gullible Goyim.

This will happen when Obama leaps on to the worlds political stage this month and shouts "PEACE". Then the above policy will be put into practice. The world will then proclaim Obama as the Saviour of The World. Sadly this will then lead us into phase two of the Zionist plot. Another incident will be created and blamed on Iran, then Obama now established as the man of peace will tell the world he has no alternative but to attack Iran to save us from this evil, the world will believe him, thus leaving Israel with a free hand to continue its age old expansionist programme for a Greater Israel.

The product of all this will be the Ultimate 'check mate' move in Europe akin to Marshall Law. In Britain the main parties will form a coalition government in order to unite against the threat of terrorism and the financial crisis with all its ills,(civil unrest etc) thus becoming a 'total police state', as planned by our not to hidden rulers THE ZIONISTS.

Anonymous said...


Your post regarding the Israeli response to HAMAS and the valid points of the NATO attack on Serbia and of Russia's response to Serbia are very well made and valid.

Your attack on bomber Harris is however totally wrong and not a fair comparison at all.

How on earth you come up with such an unbalanced comparison when the bombing raids were against an enemy who had repeatedly targeted civilians - think Warsaw (twice including razing it when defeat was imminent), Rotterdam, London, Moscow and many others is plainly misguided logic. And that's without mentioning the 10 million people murdered in Hitler's death camps.

The Germans got what they deserved and I for one regard Harris as a hero who did his duty and helped to smash the third reich. The German destruction of Coventry should also be mentioned - they have a verb for it - Coventieren - you can guess what it means. Let us also not forget that many brave air crews lost their lives when flying over enemy territory in a war where the enemy had made it clear how they would fight it. There was nothing wrong whatsoever with giving them a taste of their own medicine.

GA - I have an essay to send you, and I've sent you an email requesting some assistance.


The Green Arrow said...

Reconquista, I have the greatest respect for you but I am afraid we will have to disagree over Dresden.

It is worth remembering the bombings of Our Cities came about as a result of us first bombing German Cities.

This tactic worked as German bombers were then diverted away from bombing our airfields and early warning stations.

With regards to Warsaw, etc. Two wrongs do not make a right.

The bombings of Serbia were wrong for different reasons.

Shall we leave it there my friend and return to the current war to prevent Islamofascim taking over the free world?

Look forward to your essay and will assist if I can.

Anonymous said...

I'm not sure if you're right on that GA because if memory serves me well the Germans bombed London first - it was allegedly by accident. But to be totally honest I have no sympathy with Nazi Germany and I never will. They committed way too many atrocities against civilians IMHO so yes let's agree to disagree mate.

Have you received my email GA?


Fyrdist said...

HAIL ALBION! Nice article. Agree with everything you say (apart from the death toll).

"The death toll was staggering. The full extent of the Dresden Holocaust can be more readily grasped if one considers that well over 250,000—possibly as many as half a million—persons died within a 14-hour period, whereas estimates of those who died at Hiroshima range from 90,000 to 140,000."(1)

(1) Although it will never be possible to obtain an exact count of the victims, a reasonable estimate can be adduced by taking the number of registered inhabitants of the city, doubling it by a factor of 2+ to account for undocumented refugees in the city at the time, and then extrapolating the number of dead from analogous instances in other German cities subjected to Allied saturation bombing of civilians during World War II, notably Hamburg, Darmstadt, Kassel and Pforzheim, inter alia.

-Dresden -A Real Holocaust, George T. Parker.

Well respected historian and international best-seller David Irving estimates the death toll to be much higher. Take a loo at the facts (and the appalling images):http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/General/Dresden/index.html

One British sergeant said,

"Reports from Dresden police that 300,000 died as a result of the bombing didn't include deaths among 1,000,000 evacuees from the Breslau area trying to escape from the Russians. There were no records on them."

"After seeing the results of the bombing, I believe these figures are correct." http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/General/Dresden/StarsandStripes050545.html

For anybody who would like to estimate the deaths to be around 100, 000, I say this: go to Dresden, place yourself among a group of OAPs and then say it.

Still, it nice and easy to go along with the "accepted", "traditional", "Western" view of history, isn't it. Too much trouble to A) think for yourself; B) do a little research; and C) SEEK THE OTHER SIDE OF THE COIN.

"History is written by the victors" -I rest my case.


The Green Arrow said...


Negative. You are the 2nd person who has said they have sent me email that I have not received. Strange.
email is voteforbnp@hotmail.co.uk

Can you PM me on the Forum instead?

mark said...

Dresden was one we got wrong. Germany was practically defeated and the bombings of those civilians served no military purpose.

However, look at it context. We were at war for over 5 years, covering land, sea and air in many parts of the world. All those battles, air raids and naval engagements and we got one badly wrong.

That's not a bad record when you compare it to any of the other countries involved. Nazi Germany (too may to quote), Stalin and the Katyn massacre, Japan and the treatment of POWs and even the USA with the treatment of German POWs after the war and the forced expulsion of over 11 million ethnic German civilians from their homelands throughout Europe.

But yes, I regret Dresden and the horrible deaths of those civilians. It shouldn't have happened.

Anonymous said...

CelticMorning. Reconquista. I completely agree with you re Bomber Harris. In my view he should have an honoured place in our wartime records and should not have been treated as he was by politicians, including Churchill, who was in favour of the bombing campaign against German cities but then distanced himself from it after the war. Are we beginning to erase the memories of those dark days? I can only imagine my parents thoughts and feelings as the might of Germany was poised across the channel and they were trying to raise and protect a young family. Bombs were dropping on our great cities, thousands were being killed, we were on our knees. We were fighting a nation whose arrogant aim was total domination by any means. Their citizens got what they deserved. In total war, citizens are part of the conflict and cannot be seperated from the troops. When President Truman authorised the dropping of Atomic bombs on Japan, he never wavered, never expressed regret or remorse.Never, in the long years which followed. Why? His words were "When you have to deal with a beast you have to treat him as a beast". Germany was just as much a beast as Japan, arguably even more so. Dont waste tears or sympathy for the incinerated victims of Dresden or any other German cities. They asked for it and they got it. Without the bombing campaign they may have won the race to produce the first atomic weapons. Do you think Hitler would have hesitated to drop it on London? Do you think his citizens would have had sympathy for us? Wake up for Christs sake. We will need to be resolute in the hard years ahead and will need wartime politicians not wishy washy liberals who sympathise with their enemies. Total war must lead to total victory and let the losers stand by as the total victors celebrate. When we eventually face the fierce physical threat of Moslem domination in the years to come, do you think they will go easy on us? For God's sake wake up. War is a messy business but once you are involved then the aim is to come out victorious on the other side. As Patton, a true wartime General said, "The aim is to make the other bastard die for his country, not to die for yours."
Reserve a plinth for a statue of Bomber Harris in out history. He did a distasteful task, he did it well, he played a vital part in protecting our island home and our hard pressed citizens. I salute his memory.

Fyrdist said...

Thank heavens that there are not many Deutsch visitors to this site. Sorry, people, but seemingly WE BRITISH HAVE LEARNED NOTHING.

Some of the views in this post are the same ones that will propel us into another onslaught of fratricide.

At school I used to go along with the crowd and mock the Germans; I ate the spoon-fed lie of the teachers; in my adolescence I'd be on the terraces and in the pubs singing "there's only one Bomber Harris"...


defender said...

War is a dirty business, always has been and always will.
When fighting for the survival of your people and land winning is the only option.
Afterwards history can judge whether or not one side was excessive with use of force.
However the matter of paramount importance is survival at any cost and victory at any cost.
Bomber Harris fought to win, he did not have the option to weight the post war legalities, he had a job to do and he did it.

defender said...

GA, i just had a look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GThfWVCfjVo

Kissinger on NWO, notice how the interviewes dont bat an eyelid about his comments. I think this was recorder today.

Anonymous said...



This is grossly offensive, it shames this BNP supporting site and you are a disingenuous individual who lacks the intelligence to conduct a reasonable debate without resorting to the gutter. The very last thing pious people ever do is think for themselves and you have proved that conclusively.

What are you going to come up with next - "Disproportionate response"? Perhaps you should consider becoming a liberal, you have all the attributes.

You are displaying wisdom in hindsight and your hatred towards the sacrifice nade by your own forefathers and by the forefathers of many visitors to this site is something I for one as a frequent commenter here wish to distance myself from completely. I'm a British Nationalist, a proud one at that and turning on those who fought for Britain in its darkest hour is a big no-no in my book.

If you like what the Nazis did so much you go to Germany and lick up to them. I'd rather listen, as I have on many, many occasions, to our own British heroes who endured the horrors of WWII and who gave so much so that people like you are free to write your nasty little opinion about the allies on a site that is fighting tooth and nail for British identity and the British way of life - the legacy the golden generation passed on to us. Question and rationalise and study by all means, but what you posted is IMHO way beyond the pail.

If you are so concerned about how the older German generations feel, go break beer with the survivors and relatives of the SS Der Fuerher 2nd Waffen SS Regiment Panzer Division Das Reich and listen to their jolly exploits of the 10th June 1944 when they paid a visit to Oradour Sur Glane in France.

Then go tell the French around Oradour that "the allies are war criminals." You might want to get a second opinion from the survivors of the holocaust just to be sure. And not just the Jewish victims either. You know, people who unlike your pontificating self actually endured being stamped on by the jackboot.

We can all be self righteous, pious judges when we have the luxury of freedom that others fought and died for. It's another thing entirely when it's you and yours who are fighting to preserve their people from tyranny - not that you understand tyranny, you're too busy passing judgement against those who fought it.

And just because you were a simpleton when you were young, don't assume others shared your unfortunate predicament. Whilst you were indulging in yobbishness some of us actually had the wit to educate ourselves. You're still playing catch-up as your debating manner proves.

GA I wonder if the messages are in your junk folder or have been filtered as spam?


Anonymous said...

I grew up on a diary of Anne Frank, Colditz and the Great Escape oh and not forgetting The sound of Music. Then i actually grew up and read and travelled. The people most like us on the continent are the Germans, quiet ,reserved , industrious and kind. People who have never travelled far from our land go along with the media stereotype I am afraid.
People who defend the terror bombing of whole populations during world war two need to do a bit more research. Warsaw and Rotterdam were not war crimes according to the definition as the Germans had given three days warning to the civilians of Warsaw to leave as they surrounded the city and you can check newsreels to confirm this, with civilians given safe road exits. Rotterdam was a city where a German parachute batallion was surrounded and a limited air raid carried out to relieve them, regrettably Dutch civilans died but that was not the primary intention . Coventry was a response to the British decision to commence area bombarment.
Bombing to terrorise populations was started by the British and even Churchill was embarassed by it in 1945.

cirso said...

A recent study by German historians concluded 20000-25000 were killed in Dresden, the figures prior to this was propaganda by Germans. Bomber command have suffered injustice (no campaign medal) although at one stage were the only ones taking the war to the enemy with heavy casualties. Harris was also treated appallingly. I will declare an interest, my father was in Bomber command, he did not return one night.

Anonymous said...


The Green Arrow said...

OK Guys. If you wish to continue a debate on what constitutes excessive force then fine. Anything else will be rejected.

The Green Arrow said...


No nothing in junk. Other person says he has mailed me a few times and nothing has arrived. Stranger and stranger.

PM me on forum please.

defender said...

I had 2 uncles in bomber command, fortunately the survived. They were brave men along with all the others at the time. As always, blame politicians not servicemen and women doing their duty for their country and people.
Such a predicament such as WW2, will not be the last occasion where people may have to be prepared to fight for their very survival. We are in very dangerous times.
Concentrate on what may be before us, thats of more concern at this time in history.
I wonder quite often what the mood was in this country during sept 38 to june 39. Did they consider then what was about to happen?

Anonymous said...

Prince William and Prince Harry
Sir David Manning, who acted as a go-between for Tony Blair and George Bush in the run-up to the Iraq war, is to work for Prince William and Prince Harry.

By Andrew Pierce
Last Updated: 7:20PM GMT 06 Jan 2009

Sir David Manning is to work for Prince William and Prince Harry Sir David Manning, Britain's former ambassador to Washington, will act as an unpaid adviser to the young princes. He will act as a "wise man" and will be on call if and when they require alternative outside advice as they continue to develop their public profiles. The Queen personally appointed Sir David to work with her grandsons.

Sir David's secret memos published after the Iraq invasion revealed that Mr Blair had promised Mr Bush he would back a military strike a year before the conflict began.

The new role of Sir David was announced as Clarence House confirmed that the princes would be given their own private offices at Kensington Palace.

The Daily Telegraph reported on Monday that the Queen had backed the decision for the princes, aged 24 and 26 respectively, to have some independence from their father by having their own offices.

However, the Prince of Wales will continue to fund the office through his Duchy of Cornwall income. There will be no cost to the taxpayer.

The Household, which has been created with The Prince of Wales's support, lays the basis for The Princes' lives in the future as they progress their public, military and charitable activities.


Anonymous said...

Dear G.A. I hope you appreciate the implications of Sir David Mannings appointment to the Royal Household by the Queen as an unpaid advisor to Princes's Willliam and Harry. I am not into conspiracies obviously the Royal Household is aided and abetted by Zionists. We really do have an uphill battle. I do feel this sort of information and its implications should not be dismissed by senior members of the party. (xofpi=)

Fyrdist said...

GA, I too have previously sent you emails and had no reply. Seems your having a bit of trouble (sabotage?)I didn't think nothing of it at the time -just put it down to you be busy- but now Reconquista is having the same trouble, I guess you should look into it.

Great comments in this section, by the way. Well done to ALL. Doesn't it break the almost crushing tedium of everyday life together with the suffocating nausea of popular opinion? Ace!

Until tomorrow...

Anonymous said...

"200 million were burnt to death".

Finger trouble, that figure should read 200,000.


Anonymous said...

And how many of our old are dying this very hour in our own country??

Old people are dying by the thousand here because they cannot afford to pay for their heating. And yet they pay fortunes in council tax, VAT tax, and have contributed to the sytem all of their working lives in oncome tax and everything else. This is a national disgrace. I am very upset about this. And where does all this tax (income, council, VAT, etc.) go??? How many millions - sorry, billions - does the generous government give away each year to foreign countires??? Was it 800 million to India last year so they can build cricket clubs?? And this is when our old are freezing to death by the thousand???
Look, it is regretable if a few hundred have dies in Gaza - or anywhere - but there are thpusand dying here - thousands - and nobody is saying anything and these deaths could and should be prevented - these people have been taxed to death - all the thousands they have paid and they cannot afford fuel - GA sorry this s bit off topic but this is os immediate and national concern. There are not the tear jerking photos that Palywood produces - these old die silently in the cold, frequently alone. GA could you please do an item on this?? And with it some sort of estimate of how much of these old people's money has been sent abroad and is spent on immigration in this country (e.g the transaltion services, asylm industry, etc.)?? It must be possible to total up all the forewign aid we give and all the money spent on immigration?? I am very upset about this, so upset that I cannot sleep.

old estimates of 8 dying an hour:

more recent (this year) estimates claim around 12 will die an hour:


Anonymous said...

The article was to create debate, and it certainly did. If all is fair in love and war, then the use of excessive force should not be an issue. I am aware of the bombing of London and Coventry, but Dresden was different, it was the civilians that were the sole target. London and Coventry suffered indiscriminate bombing.

If one agrees with ‘Bomber’ Harris action on the firestorm of Dresden, and the British government have never admitted using excessive force on the civilian population, why are Palestinian casualties such an important issue? What would be different if the Israelis entered Gaza and slaughtered the civilian population to break the moral of the people?

Why are the media getting exited about 550 plus Palestinians being killed and a high proportion of them are Hamas anyway, when compared to Dresden where figures as high as 200,000 souls were burnt to death…….deliberately.

I asked are wars now becoming more polite. We now have referees, the UN and the EU, who sit in safety in Geneva and Brussels and discuss what is acceptable or not as regards casualty figures. The war time British Government were not into such niceties, they firmly believed in the saying that all is fair in love and war and to selecively target civilians including women with their babies, were fair game.